Sales Seekers

Being True to Yourself as a Seller with Shanti Joy Gold
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[00:00:00] Intro
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Shanti Joy Gold: But at the core, just be who you are. People really respond to you. To your full personality, to the unfiltered version of you. And if you find that you would describe yourself as here's who I am at work and here's who I am at home, question that and see if there's a way to bring that a little bit more closely together.

Mike Bird: Hey you're listening to Sales Seekers. The podcast that helps you break into and up through the B2B tech sales world. I'm Mike Bird. And on this episode of the show, we've got Shanti Joy Gold joining me for conversation about both her journey into sales. And the value and importance of authenticity in sales. Today's show is the last episode of 2024. I'm making a bit of a pivot in the show structure and calling these first 12 episodes of Sales Seekers, "Season 1." Season 2 will kick off somewhere in the middle of 2025. At the end of the show, I'll share a bit more about what's to come.

But back to Shanti, Shanti's a coach who specializes in helping LGBTQ+ and underrepresented people confidently thrive in their careers by being fully themselves. She's got a podcast of her own titled, _Stories We Haven't Shared_, which helps underrepresented and marginalized individuals navigate the extra layers of complexity that they encounter within the career landscape.

And while I'm not part of the LGBTQ+ community myself, I'll add that it's also a great show for allies of the community to tune into and learn from. I don't think I could have found more authentic person to come onto the podcast for this conversation. So without further ado, Here's Shanti Joy Gold.

Mike Bird: Hey Shanti, welcome to Sales Seekers. How's it going?

Shanti Joy Gold: It's going great. Good to see you.

Mike Bird: Yeah. I'm so glad you've joined.

[00:01:49] If you really know Shanti...
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Mike Bird: I like to kick off all my conversations with this icebreaker to help folks realize that we salespeople are not just sellers. We are human beings. So, can you complete this sentence in a phrase or less?

If you really know me, you know that I am blank.

Shanti Joy Gold: I am a recovering overthinker.

Mike Bird: Okay. What does that mean? Just out of curiosity.

Shanti Joy Gold: Yeah, I tend to go real deep and can lead with my head. I think I feel that I can think my way out of situations and what I've come to learn is that The best route forward is typically not from my head, but from my heart. So I've been recovering and working more from my heart.

Mike Bird: I can really relate to that. I don't know if this is oversharing for a podcast, but I have literally sat in therapy sessions where my therapist was like, what are you thinking? Like, just tell me how you feel. I'm like thinking through how I feel. And so I'm imagining that's what it was, what it's like to be a recovering overthinker perhaps.

Shanti Joy Gold: That is a very big piece of it. Yes.

Mike Bird: Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, I can relate.

[00:02:58] Shanti's journey into sales
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Mike Bird: Let's talk a bit about your career journey. Can you break down your journey into sales into no more than three big steps?

Shanti Joy Gold: Yeah. The first step was definitely full on resistance, which I'm, and I'm happy to tell you more about any of these steps, but it was full on resistance. Then, " can't hurt to try. What do I have to lose" step? And then the rest is history step, which was once I did it to my complete surprise, I actually enjoyed it tremendously. And 30 years later, here I am. So I was in, in sales for quite a long time despite that start. And those first two steps.

Mike Bird: Yeah. Can you unpack the resistance piece first? I'm curious to know what caused that for you?

Shanti Joy Gold: I definitely had a used car salesman perception of what sales was. And there was nothing about that that appealed to me. Also the first person that I happened to connect with in the sales industry was for a newspaper, which at which I ultimately worked. And I fancied myself more of a creative writer type.

And so my brain just went in that direction and down the pass that I had predetermined for myself without really exploring. And I think it was those two things primarily.

Mike Bird: That's really interesting. And the moment where you were like, "okay, I'm really opening my mind up to this." Like before you got to the rest is history part, because I think we're going to unpack some of those things that you've learned from that point on your journey forward. But the," can't hurt to try piece." Can you expand a bit on that?

Shanti Joy Gold: Yeah, I mean I was early on, I was just out of college, the person that had offered me a sales position earlier, that I had flat out turned down, I reconnected with. I was, not employed yet. And to his credit, he said, look, it's a summer internship: what have you got to lose? Essentially, you try it, you make a little bit of money, a very little bit of money.

If you like it or you don't, if you didn't like it, it was a summer and yeah, you move on. And if you did like it, then no promises here because we're just starting the internship program. But you'll know it's something that you like and that was it. It was, stop taking yourself so seriously.

Stop predetermining, get curious, give it a shot. Why not? And he was right.

Mike Bird: My own story kind of has something similar where someone said, do you want to try this? And I said, "sure." And I feel like I love what you said about not taking yourself too seriously or getting Overly projected in the future of your life and your career and just give it a shot because I have come across a lot of folks who tried out sales in some way and it wasn't their thing but they learned something from that experience about themselves that they took into their next thing or things. I've never seen someone say, "I learned nothing and it was a total waste of time" Put it that way.

Shanti Joy Gold: Yeah, sales is intense. So you're going to learn pretty quickly what, to your point, what you like and what you don't like. What feels good, what doesn't feel good. What fits, what doesn't fit. And that's all immensely important information. If you have an opportunity to experiment with it in a very non-attached way that doesn't feel super risky, you'll learn a lot very fast and clarity is kind.

[00:06:28] Sales DNA: what it takes to succeed in sales
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Mike Bird: Thanks for sharing a bit about the journey. I would love to start to unpack a little bit about some of the things that you've learned in "the rest is history phase" of your journey. A couple of big topics that I'd love for us to try and unpack: the first being what you call "Sales DNA."

So you've been in sales leadership before, you've hired a number of salespeople including a lot of folks from different or nontraditional backgrounds. People who came from somewhere else into the sales realm. And I'm curious, what is Sales DNA according to you?

Shanti Joy Gold: Yeah, I would say it's similar to a sports mentality, right? It's this desire to play and win, a certain competitiveness, and ability to shake off misses or losses. And to really see them genuinely, not just in a philosophical way, as opportunities for learning and growth. And I think that's just a big part of it is that spirit to succeed, to challenge yourself, to know that built into the package there's going to be a lot of misses along the way.

And see that as a part of the excitement of it all. It's a game. It doesn't mean you're not taking it seriously, but there's a way to play the game that leads to success and allows you to be happy and fulfilled and growing as you go. And I don't want to say despite, because that's a negative, while experiencing a whole lot of "no." While doing things on the fly. It's very complex and it can be a grind, unless you're enjoying all of those aspects of it as you move through.

Mike Bird: That's a really holistic take on what it's like to be in the sales world. I like how you've talked about it from the standpoint of it being a game. What I heard there is that it can be fun. If you enjoy the play-to-play aspects.

I'm an old football coach. A football game has a couple hundred snaps in it, and it can be a very long, four-quarter slog if you're playing that. But if you're someone who loves every little second of every one of those 200 plays, or you learn to love it, then the whole journey starts to feel a lot more engaging and exciting. So I'm taking my own sports background and trying to throw that into your metaphor here.

Why do you feel like this mindset is so important to adopt if you're in sales?

Shanti Joy Gold: I said it previously a bit, but it can be a grind, right? So inherent in sales is, you're out there every day, trying to establish connections. Get initial meetings that turn to, ultimately into contracts or not. And so hearing "no" a lot is built in. And so that's one piece.

Typically in sales, there's a lot of change. Whatever industry you're in, whatever you're selling, however you're selling it today, is very likely going to change soon. And change is its own thing. There's typically the internal pieces that you need to navigate in order to deliver what you want to clients.

And then there's the client delivery piece and the client relationships and the client "yes's" and "no's." It's very dynamic and it's a spin. I've never known two sales days to look alike. Which either, drives you crazy or again, part of the fun of it, right?

So I think all of those things either energize you and light you up and feel exciting and motivating or they wear you down and you have to be having fun and you have to be enjoying it. That doesn't mean you don't have a bad day.

That doesn't mean you don't even have a rough spell because we're human and there's a can be a rollercoaster to sales. But on balance, it needs to be something that you truly love and are energized by so that you can absorb those other things that you inevitably deal with in a way that feeds you versus wears you down.

Mike Bird: Yeah, I've thought about this in my own career, just about how do we smooth out the bumps a bit? And I agree that if you're not overall energized by the work, it's really hard to dig yourself out of the troughs in the curve of the energy curve.

And then I think there is a bit of a discipline around just like not getting too high at the same time.

But I also think that to your point, there's gotta be like this baseline level of energy that you feel in the course of this kind of work in order to really stick it out for the long haul.

[00:11:18] Not sure you have Sales DNA?
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Mike Bird: What if someone's hearing all of this and they're saying to themselves "Hey, I'm not sure I've got this Sales DNA thing." And I'm still thinking about sales, still thinking about wanting to be in it. What would you say to them?

Shanti Joy Gold: I used to have this conversation with people in interviews because it can be easy to get focused on the things about sales that are sexy, right? Whether it's the product, or the money or, there are a whole variety of things. And I wanted to really make sure people were thinking about the DNA part.

So what I used to say to them was, and this is an old-school analogy, right? It doesn't matter that this isn't probably how you're doing it anymore. Just imagine that you were getting in the car every day, driving to a business district, going door-to-door, knocking on doors, walking in with a belief that you have a product that is good, and trying to connect with the right people and have a conversation.

And you're hearing more "no's" than "yes's," maybe some people are not so politely asking you to leave, etc. And then you have a couple good conversations too, right? So you're door knocking, you're hearing more no's than yes's, you're getting more resistance than welcomed.

And then you get back in the car and you drive somewhere else and you do it over again. And this is what the majority of your day is: outreach, trying to make connections, getting a certain amount of "no's" that will most likely outweigh the opportunities to connect in a meaningful way with people about what they do and about what you offer and how that might work together.

And that in and out of the car, knocking on doors, knocking on doors, knocking on doors, then coming back at the end of the day, right?

And I would say to people, that description probably lands in one of three ways for you.

Either you're thinking, I don't know why anyone in their right mind would want to do that.

I could probably do that.

Or that sounds like the coolest job in the world.

And if it sounds like the coolest job in the world to you. You have likely Sales DNA. And if not, then you should pause and reflect and decide, is this the right thing for me? Because it isn't for everyone. And I always used to say, we're a strange bunch in all the ways, but in good ways, but it's just, it's not for everyone.

And I think that's a decent litmus test.

Mike Bird: I like how you've put it. And I also love the fact that you went through your own sort of questioning along your own journey before going full on into the sales world. Something else that you said that really sparked something for me is just, we are a weird bunch and the sales community really is that. It feels very communal. And we are the only people who really understand each other's realities. And it's a fun space to be in once you get all-in on it.

Shanti Joy Gold: Yeah, it's a crazy space in a lot of ways, including really cool, fun, even creative- we haven't talked about that- but it can be quite creative. And there's nothing like closing a deal. And how many careers do you have where when that happens, you're running around and high-fiving people. That's pretty cool to have a career where there's an actual high-five moments built in.

So, that's wonderful. And so it's a mix. It's a mix of all of it. And the high-five moments are great. They're fewer than the other moments. And so it's, being sure that you will enjoy the ride that gets you to the high-five moments as well.

[00:14:58] The wildest transition to sales Shanti's seen
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Mike Bird: I love how you put that. What is the wildest career transition that you've seen someone make in order to enter sales?

Shanti Joy Gold: I thought about this question. I probably have a better answer than bartender/waitress to sales, but that's the one that I landed on. I've met so many people, but I'm gonna I'm gonna go with bartender waitress for now.

Mike Bird: Okay. Okay. I actually, I'm meeting an old bartender of mine for lunch. He's now in sales. He's been in sales for a few years.

So, maybe there's a trend line here for the folks who are listening who are in the service industry. Why do you think there might be a bit of a natural through line for folks who are in that space coming into sales?

Shanti Joy Gold: I think it has a hundred percent to do with enjoying conversations and connecting with people, wherever that might take you. And that's really what sales ultimately is. Just connection, learning about people, looking them in the eye, having conversations, it's people skills- but not in a practiced way- in a genuine "curiosity about people" way.

Mike Bird: Yeah, it makes a whole lot of sense when you put it that way.

Shanti Joy Gold: Yeah.

[00:16:12] Authenticity in sales: what's it really?
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Mike Bird: Here's another big topic that I wanted to chat about today, which as we were preparing for this recording, you talked about the importance of authenticity in sales.

Authenticity has become this weird buzzword, sadly. And so everyone has their own take on it. What does it mean to you?

Shanti Joy Gold: A bunch of things. I think that authenticity has a lot to do with being the same person that you are with your family and friends at work with prospects, clients, coworkers. And obviously there's a certain professional decorum that I'm not suggesting you throw out the window, right? You don't want to walk up and, slap them on the back and, use some, very casual language necessarily.

But at the core, just be who you are. People really respond to you. To your full personality, to the unfiltered version of you. And if you find that there's, you would describe yourself as here's who I am at work and here's who I am at home, question that and see if there's a way to bring that a little bit more closely together.

I think authenticity has a lot to do with just genuinely, generously listening, being present in conversations and taking a genuine interest in what the other person is saying. It's almost too simple. I think there's a lot of people who have sales scripts or a certain amount of information they want to cover before they leave.

And I understand that there's an element of that. But, nothing is going to get the other person's attention in a good way more than really just generously listening and being curious. And I think that's a lot of what authenticity is.

Mike Bird: That's a great perspective. And I think. goes way deeper in terms of how people might think about authenticity. Now I feel like people are taking authenticity to mean either maybe oversharing or like just really opening up in maybe some unnatural ways about themselves or trying to find these random things that are unique about them that other people might also relate to in some way.

And I feel like all of that's sort of contrived. But I loved how you put it: being consistent across these different parts of your life. And, it's so much easier to be consistent when you are in that sort of listening-first mode.

Shanti Joy Gold: Yeah. Yeah. That's really it. I think people really value that kind of deeper connection, and it's ultimately what will set you apart from the guy who may be, or gal, who may just be what we used call a peddler. Someone peddling their products, right? And so I think that, number one, it's easiest, because all you have to do is be yourself and listen and be curious, and number two, it'll I think set you apart almost every time.

[00:19:17] Why authenticity is so valuable to a salesperson
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Mike Bird: Yeah, for sure. You've talked a little bit about this already, but what do you see as making authenticity as valuable as it is. Can you expand a little bit more on what you shared?

Shanti Joy Gold: There is so much that we experience in the world, I think especially today, just with how fast paced everything is and how much messaging that we're being bombarded with, and cutting through that by just offering a genuine connection to people is so valuable. And I think more needed than ever, more craved than ever: just a true connection from someone who genuinely cares.

And I think a part of it too, is authentically offering them solutions that fit their needs. And that includes if your solution doesn't fit their needs: pointing them in another direction.

And the value of that is if the two don't fit to begin with, it's going to come out ultimately and not in good ways.

And when you do that, you go from being again, a peddler to an actual resource to people, and that speaks volumes. And so that might become a referral, right? But if you try to force a fit. And something that doesn't authentically match, that's ultimately going to blow up in any number of ways. If you can just be a resource and guide people according to what's in their genuine best interest, you aren't going to go wrong.

And you'll establish a name for yourself, and whether it's a direct referral or just a relationship that doesn't blow up, it's ultimately going to serve them and you.

Mike Bird: I'm thinking a bit about some of the folks that I've worked with where the relationship that we built felt really authentic. And then times where I felt like I wasn't getting a very authentic look from someone into who they are. And it is really striking, the difference between those things.

The more authentic the relationships have been, I have found that they're more fulfilling, those kinds of moments in my day. Those calls are things that I really look forward to. Even if we're going to talk about something that's maybe not even that pleasant, like someone's not happy with their contract or the way that our service is helping them.

We can still approach that kind of difficult topic in a considerate and thoughtful way because of the authenticity that's coming from both sides.

Shanti Joy Gold: Correct. Yeah, that lets you navigate all of the moments, including the challenging ones, which are inevitable.

And I think that, we used to talk a lot about being a trusted advisor. And if you can establish yourself with a prospect or a client as a trusted advisor, then that's really the, to me, the ultimate, and the only way to do that is by being authentic and truly caring, truly listening, truly being present and available, and offering resources that, that fit.

But trusted advisor status is, that's the pinnacle for me.

Mike Bird: We'll have to come back to that as another podcast episode at some point, Shanti. That's a good one.

[00:22:34] Can authenticity be cultivated?
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Mike Bird: So according to you, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, can authenticity be cultivated in salespeople or across a sales organization or team more broadly?

Shanti Joy Gold: Definitely. I think that it has to be modeled first and foremost. And the people within the organization, each individual person, has to be open to it. I think that's the main thing, is if they're open to coaching, if they're just generally open, then yes. If the organization is full of people who are set in their ways, resistant, not willing to look at things in a different way, that can be challenging. But as long as you have people who are willing to listen, and then you have leaders who can model the behavior, absolutely, definitely is possible.

[00:23:31] One thing to know if you're considering a sales career
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Mike Bird: I love that. What's one thing that folks who may be considering a career in sales should know in advance? You've talked about a few different things here, but is there one thing that sticks out the most?

Shanti Joy Gold: I think it's the Sales DNA part as much as you can take yourself through that thought process and immerse yourself in the idea of what an average day is in a given sales organization. I think it's important to separate out a lot of the cool stuff that you'll hear about being within a particular sales organization.

It can sound very sexy, and it is in a lot of ways, and really drill down for yourself, with guidance ideally from whomever it is that you're speaking with. What does an average day really look like? How is the majority of my time going to be spent and how does that make me feel? And I think answering that question is really critical.

Mike Bird: Yeah, and every day can be different, but I think that there are some common themes, for sure, that we've talked about that will be recurring. And if you're not okay with those themes, maybe this isn't for you. And this podcast will be the last thing you listen to as you consider going to a different career path completely.

Shanti Joy Gold: That's right. Or you could do what we just talked about before, which is: go in, try it without a tremendous amount of attachment to the outcome of this little sales experiment that you're going to do. Maybe just trying it and giving it a shot is also an okay way to do it, but having some detachment from the outcome and being okay with however that unfolds for you.

Mike Bird: There we go. Dear Listener, try it and stayed deattached. I love it.

Shanti Joy Gold: Yeah.

[00:25:17] One thing that hinders a salesperson's growth
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Mike Bird: Spoken like a true coach, Shanti. What's one thing you've seen salespeople do that usually hinders their growth within their sales career?

Shanti Joy Gold: Resistance to change. Nine out of ten times. If you think back to the sports analogy, think about what an athlete is: they're agile, they're constantly pivoting, they're studiers. They're looking for continuous improvement. They're seeing failure as an opportunity to learn, and it's like a blur of motion and change and asking you to flow with it.

And that's, the thing that I've seen is when people get entrenched or really dug into a certain way of thinking or doing that, they get stuck and they get left behind. Sounds dramatic, but sales is a dynamic field. And to go in with the expectation of "it's going to change."

And it's just really a matter of when it's going to change and how much and what the change is going to look like. And have that be something that's exciting versus " another change" because it's common, I guarantee you. And so I think that's the biggest thing is resistance to that.

Mike Bird: Yeah. It's the only constant in life, right? Change itself.

Shanti Joy Gold: It's true, but I think it's probably in my view, particularly true of sales.

Mike Bird: Yeah. Agreed.

[00:26:44] Connecting and engaging with Shanti's work
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Mike Bird: This has been a fantastic conversation. We're running up against the clock, sadly. Where can people go to connect with you and learn more about what you're doing?

Shanti Joy Gold: Yep, the main place would be my website, shantijoygold.com, and I also have a podcast that I just started, and that can be found at storieswehaventshared.com. Those would be the two main places.

Mike Bird: Yeah, it's a really neat show you're building and I've tuned into it a bit and I love it. We'll link to both of those things for sure in the show notes and would love to have you, Dear Listener, check out what Shanti is doing because it's pretty cool.

Fantastic. Shanti, thanks again for joining Sales Seekers and I'm excited to see what comes next for you.

Shanti Joy Gold: Thank you, this is such a great resource that you're offering to people. It's an interesting field, and there's a lot to navigate, and the fact that you're putting in this time and effort and offering these insights is really cool. So I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you.

Mike Bird: Thank you.

[00:27:42] Update on Sales Seekers
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Mike Bird: Hey again, I hope you enjoyed. Shanti's incredible insight into what authenticity really is. And why it's so important for us and sales. I promise to share a little bit more about what's going on with the show for the foreseeable future.

So here it is. You can expect a pause running from now, here in late 2024, until somewhere in the middle of 2025. I'm going to use this time to get deep into producing some fantastic new episodes for you. And if you have feedback or ideas of what you'd love to hear on Sale Seekers, Season 2, reach out to me on LinkedIn.

My name is Mike Bird, B I R D. Or send me an email to mike@salesseekers.ca. In the meantime. Now's a great moment to subscribe to my email list. I've been writing career development and job search tips for salespeople every other week throughout the second half of this year.

Now I'm publishing every Sunday. So come join me if you're serious about taking the next step in your sales journey. Go to salesseekers.ca to sign up.

It's been a lot of fun producing Season 1 of Sales Seekers for you. And I look forward to being back in your ears in mid-2025. Bye for now..